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August 23, 2007

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ctw

"Why is the first offense a hate crime, and the second and third not?"

According to Wikipedia, hate crimes are identified by being perpetrated against a "victim because of his or her membership in a certain social group, usually defined by race, religion, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation. Hence, under that definition 1 and 3 are, 2 isn't.

An alternative discriminator might be purpose. Eg, race-based crimes and gay bashing often are committed for no purpose other than to inflict suffering on somebody based only on their membership in a social group, not for any secondary motive (personal gain, political effect, et al). If one (reasonably IMO) excludes "profession" or "level in a hierarchy" as defining a "social group", then 1 remains a hate crime, 2 remains not, but 3 becomes debatable given the emergence of integrity-free opportunists like Ann Coulter who tacitly - or perhaps explicitly - I'm not sure, not being a coprophagiac - promotes violence against liberals/democrats based purely on their identity as such, not in order to achieve any specific political result.

Under that discriminator, rape also is debatable. If for the purpose of sexual gratification (unimaginable though that may be to some of us), it wouldn't qualify; if for the purpose of debasement, it might.

Charles

Frederick Hamilton

Eras,
Again, I am not the one who has stated the M13 gangs of illegal aliens are killing blacks because they are black and engaging in ethnic cleansing, it is the authorities in California. Are the authorities engaging in hyperbole because the gangs haven't come out and said they are trying to eliminate a race? Possibly. The salient point is they are killing based on race. Is that not a hate crime? I come on here I suspect as much as anyone about crime, criminals, approprate punishment, et al. Tough to be on here every day, as I really do have a day job.

Outrage. Yes, I am outraged at every murder. I am particularly outraged at the murder of three young blacks about to leave Newark for the safe confines of Delaware State University only to be executed by illegal immigrant residents of a sanctuary state and city. I know that does not fly well on this liberal law blog but that is OK. It shows the hypocrisy of "hate crimes" talk by liberals. Yep. I am outraged by murders of blacks, whites, homosexuals, heterosexuals and believe the perpetrators should be executed themselves based upon the facts of the crime. I am seriously outraged that government entities can claim sanctuary from the laws of the country and doubly outraged at the federal governments complicity in the sanctuary status of illegal immigrants. I am seriously outraged that these fine young black people were caused to be executed by the failures of government at all levels. I am not suprised that liberals are hypocritical when a single homosexual man is killed for hateful reasons but look the other way when blacks are killed for hateful reasons and for reasons that they won't deal with (illegal aliens given sanctuary).

vam

The gang is called MS-13, not M-13. Perhaps you should learn more about it before you attempt to use it to derail the discussion.

Frederick Hamilton

Sorry, MS-13. My error. Doubt I'll derail the discussion. Just not comfortable with the concept of hate crimes and ignoring the clear hate crimes of some groups and the failure of the legal community (judges, lawyers, law schools, police, governments to address the wink and the nod toward criminal illegal alien activity). The NJ AG just agreed to all law enforcement notifying the feds regarding apprehension of illegal aliens. Most state AG's won't even discuss it. Strange.

Erasmussimo

Mr. Hamilton, you write:

"I am not suprised that liberals are hypocritical when a single homosexual man is killed for hateful reasons but look the other way when blacks are killed for hateful reasons and for reasons that they won't deal with (illegal aliens given sanctuary)."

Can you substantiate your claim that liberals look the other way? Can you provide a quote from a prominent liberal saying, "I really don't care that three young blacks were murdered?"

Frederick Hamilton

Eras,

You know that no politician with a brain would say such a thing. Words mean nothing. Deeds mean everything. Suffice it to say our laws mean nothing to most cities and states and the ignoring of the law and looking the other way starts with the federal government itself. Doesn't seem to matter if it is liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat.

The people of America aren't stupid and I am anxious to see how the immigration issue plays out in the 2008 elections. From president down to city council. Most Americans are fed up with the hypocrisy, injustice, total lack of justice, the wink and the nod, and all the rest of the malarky that goes with our immigration laws and those in a position to enforce them. The immigration fiasco in America today is as big an issue as Iraq. Lawyers and law school blogs won't talk about it because it would require them to acknowledge that the law is irrelevant to those that are ethically bound to enforce the law and demonstrates the hypocrisy of liberals and conservatives. I think there just may be a political price to pay in 2008 on both sides of the aisle for the morass cities, states, judges, lawyers and police find themselves in.

Whats that old saw...Ignorance of the law....? Ignoring the law is worse and means that the law is a game and we really aren't a nation of laws. Or maybe just a nation where we can pick and choose what laws we will abide by. So to simply add another law, a "hate crime" law is a joke. A rather sick one, but a joke.

Erasmussimo

OK, Mr. Hamilton, so you have no evidence to support your claims about the beliefs of liberals. Your claims are solely the result of personal prejudice.

Frederick Hamilton

Eras,
Mea Culpa, I shouldn't have only chastised liberals. Liberals, conservatives, Republicans and Democrats. All guilty of a complete trashing of our immigration laws. As mentioned, I think the public at the ballot box is going to extract a price from Repubs and Dems, liberal and conservative, regarding immigration and the wholesale ignoring of the issue/problem. This is a big issue. And with the gangs of illegals it is a part and parcel of the "hate crimes" some don't like visited on the gay community and now visited on the black community.

Vivian

Hate crimes. Shouldn't all violent crimes be hate crimes- where the perpetrator displays no regard for the victim? The designation 'hate crime' actually discriminates against certain groups. Why should not victims in all groups have the right to expect that those carrying out specific acts/crimes against them to receive the harshest penalty or sentence possible under the law? And about motivation: If someone bashes my head in numerous times while yelling, "I love you, I love you", will he/she be given a lighter sentence?

Vivian

I was not writing about a crime of passion above in the last sentence. Its about two people with no history. What would a witness to the crime and to the words have to offer about intent for hate crime criteria? Hate crime classification seems too arbitrary.

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